PakMediNet Discussion Forum : Pakistani Medical Journals : Dire need to improve
Dire need to improve
I have been searching and reading the available medical literature in Pakistan as available from this website as well as individual journal websites for past couple of months.
One has to say that the medical literature published from Pakistan needs serious improvement both in research methodology, ethics, statistics as well as paper writing itself.
One gets the impression that there is no focus by those responsible in publishing these journals. I don't know whether there is any peer review process available or not but one thing is certain that 90% of the articles published would not make it into a decent peer reviewed publication.
And what is this thing "Registered with PMDC". Does this render some kind of credibility to the journal or is this another scam by PMDC to get money.
I hope people do not feel offended by this message. The only way to improve is to handle criticism well and try to improve.
Posted by: oncomanPosts: 23 :: 22-10-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
quote:
oncoman wrote:
I have been searching and reading the available medical literature in Pakistan as available from this website as well as individual journal websites for past couple of months.
One has to say that the medical literature published from Pakistan needs serious improvement both in research methodology, ethics, statistics as well as paper writing itself.
One gets the impression that there is no focus by those responsible in publishing these journals. I don't know whether there is any peer review process available or not but one thing is certain that 90% of the articles published would not make it into a decent peer reviewed publication.
And what is this thing "Registered with PMDC". Does this render some kind of credibility to the journal or is this another scam by PMDC to get money.
I hope people do not feel offended by this message. The only way to improve is to handle criticism well and try to improve.
Posted by: chameedPosts: 173 :: 22-10-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
I am not trying to bash anything. What I am saying is an honest truth. I dont need to post my bibliography publiclly anywhere.
I knew I would draw responses like this and this is a big reason for no improvements.
Posted by: oncomanPosts: 23 :: 23-10-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
Let's see what you have contributed to the literature. Did you publish anything or did you just collect a few insignificant diplomas by memorizing trivia?
Posted by: chameedPosts: 173 :: 26-10-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
Please avoid personal comments over here. Discuss on the important issue raised by ONCOMAN in his first message.
Thank you in advance.
Posted by: yasirPosts: 90 :: 27-10-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Dire need to improve
quote:
yasir wrote:
Please avoid personal comments over here. Discuss on the important issue raised by ONCOMAN in his first message.
Thank you in advance.
Posted by: chameedPosts: 173 :: 08-11-2004 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Re: Dire need to improve
i definitely agree that the pakistani medical literature needs to improve one of the reason not to improve currently is the beauraocratic attitude of the journals and the nepotism. the editors and chief editors of the indexed journals have miniature profiles and they are just there for some reason best known to them only. who is Azmat Ali Khan the Managing editor of JCPSP, Who is fatema Jawaid and who is the Editor of JAMC and how do they qualify to be the thaikadars of medical literature of pakistan . they donot even bother about anything because like most of the incompetent and good for nothing ppl in pakistan they have their seats firmly held .
May God help this country and save them from the thugs.
Ijaz
quote:
chameed wrote:
quote:
yasir wrote:
Please avoid personal comments over here. Discuss on the important issue raised by ONCOMAN in his first message.
Thank you in advance.
What topic?
Criticism requires appropriate credentials and secondly, criticism without alternative is nothing more than a babel from a nincompoop.
Refrain from jumping in with multiple ID's.
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 11-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
mr yasir i appreciate ur politeness and good nature. People like u are protecting the incompetent lot of these thugs and that is why we have such a bad name in outside world. look at india and what is there contribution to the medical world . look at the number of indians who are in emminent positions in the medical world and then look at these pigmees in Pakistan who just like to hold firm to their seats till they die. we need radical change in the medical field we should develop opportunities in our country so that the trained pakistani human resourse who is working abroad come back and work for our ppl take over the reins of medicine from those self procliamed and incompetent specialist and do something good for this country. personal comments are nor personal when u r making them against somebody who is supposed to perform his job dutifully and fails to do so they are then called a evaluation.
ijaz
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 11-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
You are right.
But not everybody is same here. There are hundreds of Pakistani Doctors at great positions and doing really excellent work as well.
One thing I would like to point out over here. I have seen a number of Pakistani Doctors who specialize from US, take high degrees, and come back to Pakistan. I am afraid only few of them work for the benefit of the country. Why is it so? Most of them start earning money. Only few contribute in the medical literature and only few pass their knowledge to junior doctors. Is there anything wrong in our genes or something else is the problem?
Posted by: yasirPosts: 90 :: 11-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Dire need to improve
nothing is wrong in their genes but since they grow up with a sense of insecurity with them and when they comeback they still have that feeling and since everybody in our society is living on injustice and nepotism they try to be influential and part of the society. we can only improve if our goverments open their eyes , what is the amount of budget which is spent on buying new guns and what is the share for the national health. does it suits us one of the most poor countries where still there is polio, children die of diarrhea, Quaks are running big practices even in big cities without fear, the doctors big or small have no principles of them some of them probably are worse than the quaks. Look at the standard of medicine and training in the country its pathetic. We donot need pseudo issues like land disputes with other countries which i firmly believe have been created to provide employment to one million Dashkaraas which we have been raising which we proudly call pak army which invades its own country every ten years, with no consideration to the children of this country who are as hungry and helpless as ever. Not that the ploiticians are less thugs in our country. Lets all join hands to fight against disease, poverty, discrimination and indifference may god help us make pakistan a better place to live for the children of tommorow, unfortunately we couldnot do it for children of today.
sorry if i hurt anybody's feelings
ijaz
quote:
yasir wrote:
You are right.
But not everybody is same here. There are hundreds of Pakistani Doctors at great positions and doing really excellent work as well.
One thing I would like to point out over here. I have seen a number of Pakistani Doctors who specialize from US, take high degrees, and come back to Pakistan. I am afraid only few of them work for the benefit of the country. Why is it so? Most of them start earning money. Only few contribute in the medical literature and only few pass their knowledge to junior doctors. Is there anything wrong in our genes or something else is the problem?
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 12-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
WOW - i cannot help but to be amused by the discussion - it started with the simple honest opinion that the standard of medical journals need to be improved and has lead to name calling and national / international politics. And thats the answer WHY we have such low standard in everything - cos all we know is to play politics and start pointing fingers.
The low standard of journals is mainly due to 3 reasons:
1. There is no compulsion on clinicians to do research and publish, so who would be bothered to publish anything as an extra burden to his job and practice.
2. Most of the journals represent a very small unrepresentative "clan" of a specialty - with the editorial appointments given to friends and colleagues. The journal is mostly a political feather in the cap rather than any scientific purpose (I am saying "most" of the journals as there are obviously some good journals as well)
3. There are not enough papers submitted to fill up a journal on a regular basis - so they publish whatever they can get their hands on.
I suppose there is no easy solution to all this - except that it is up to the authors to value their own genuine research and not to publish in journals with no impact factor or not in medline.
Posted by: nukedocPosts: 6 :: 17-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Dire need to improve
u r too innocent my brother when something decays in one place it doesnot decays alone, it destroys everything . i have to say u have to understand the thing do u think if we correct those things which u have pointed out we will be publishing research of Harvard's standard. Nothing works in isolation. Have you ever thought the standard of care provided in pakistani hospitals is not even mentioned as a historical refrence in textbooks how will u publish this thing and have u ever talked to these self proclaimed professors who have never ever read or written a single really scinetific article and they think that they are gods because this is the make up of our society which is getting rotten we are spraying air freshners to mask its smell but can't hide it for long.
sorry for bring emotional , because i care for this country and my peoplr who donot know that they deserve a better life.
ijaz
quote:
nukedoc wrote:
WOW - i cannot help but to be amused by the discussion - it started with the simple honest opinion that the standard of medical journals need to be improved and has lead to name calling and national / international politics. And thats the answer WHY we have such low standard in everything - cos all we know is to play politics and start pointing fingers.
The low standard of journals is mainly due to 3 reasons:
1. There is no compulsion on clinicians to do research and publish, so who would be bothered to publish anything as an extra burden to his job and practice.
2. Most of the journals represent a very small unrepresentative "clan" of a specialty - with the editorial appointments given to friends and colleagues. The journal is mostly a political feather in the cap rather than any scientific purpose (I am saying "most" of the journals as there are obviously some good journals as well)
3. There are not enough papers submitted to fill up a journal on a regular basis - so they publish whatever they can get their hands on.
I suppose there is no easy solution to all this - except that it is up to the authors to value their own genuine research and not to publish in journals with no impact factor or not in medline.
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 18-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
Ijazali, you seemed quite angry and emotional. I agree that the health care provided in our Govt hospitals is not updated or sufficient. How can you expect a state of art health care from a hospital which has very low budget and which is unable to buy new equipment or to repair the old ones? I worked in a Govt hospital for 4 years and we used our best to treat and help our patients in all possible ways. There was totally lack of support from Administration and we used to tell them always about the problems with the equipment. They always have one answer ie lack of funds. What about the salaries to the doctors? Our doctors work day & night on just Rs 6000/- month. Even the consultant doctors are getting less than 20,000/month. In this pay, how would you expect a trained doctor to work in a max possible manner than to fly outside Pakistan for good opportunity.
As far as Medical Research is considered, I think it better than doing nothing. Doctors have developed a good awareness about it. But still a lot is needed to be done. Good quality research needs Funds and no organization in Pakistan is willing to fund.
What if we close all medical journals except those indexed in MedLine and send our papers to these ones. This will no only improve the standard of our indexed journals but will also increase the competition.
Posted by: docosamaPosts: 333 :: 18-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Dire need to improve
but have u ever thought why are we in those conditions. why are there no funds , why are the doctors under paid which leads them to do all these dishonourable deeds. I can tell u why but then it will become an answer which will be termed stereotype lamenting of Politicians, Pakistan's needless army, lack of leadership among doctor community with the top guys just keeping good relations with the administration and not really bothering them. the newspapers really get excited on small issues has somebody ever thought / talked about the Explosive incidence of Hepatitis in the country , Polio which is nonexistant in the other countries we are just worried that we are not getting the F16's i can claim with surety even one F 16 can help make us a reasonable hospital at District level with very good facilities. This world has not progressed on the basis of brute force but education and sheer force of education. We should put our best stocks in education and health wif we get better in these two no body can bother us- i promise. We should all join and request our So called and self imposed leaders to stop this injustice look towards the worried and hungry looking faces of our children , its our responsibility to protect them and shelter them for a better tommorow.
ijaz ;e
quote:
docosama wrote:
Ijazali, you seemed quite angry and emotional. I agree that the health care provided in our Govt hospitals is not updated or sufficient. How can you expect a state of art health care from a hospital which has very low budget and which is unable to buy new equipment or to repair the old ones? I worked in a Govt hospital for 4 years and we used our best to treat and help our patients in all possible ways. There was totally lack of support from Administration and we used to tell them always about the problems with the equipment. They always have one answer ie lack of funds. What about the salaries to the doctors? Our doctors work day & night on just Rs 6000/- month. Even the consultant doctors are getting less than 20,000/month. In this pay, how would you expect a trained doctor to work in a max possible manner than to fly outside Pakistan for good opportunity.
As far as Medical Research is considered, I think it better than doing nothing. Doctors have developed a good awareness about it. But still a lot is needed to be done. Good quality research needs Funds and no organization in Pakistan is willing to fund.
What if we close all medical journals except those indexed in MedLine and send our papers to these ones. This will no only improve the standard of our indexed journals but will also increase the competition.
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 18-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Re: Dire need to improve
One more thing i want to mention which has become part of our society is the "Chamcha" culture , everybody is a chamcha of the boss hardly anybody has the guts to question some wrong doing we should think about that it has reached alarming proportions.
Secondly have u ever thought that the mullas will gather on a small issue which is of no use to anyone but they will never gather for an educational issue or health issue. the politicians will cry all the time on trivial things when not in government but have never questioned the govt why are no tertiary care or primary care hosputals being built, why a coomon man donot have access to the heath care because they donot get treated here , when they get alcoholic cirhosis they travel to New York to get the Hepatic transplant. The worst than these two are the Beaurocrats and Army Generals who have destroyed this country starting from day one. we should build nour own leadership within the real doctors not the tatoos of the Administration we also do not need Gagaas or gundas in the name of leaders as has been the course of action in medical college. we need eduacted ppl who need to sit down and find solutions for the whole community.
Ijaz
[Edited by docosama on 04-19-2005 at 11:01 AM GMT]
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 19-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improveIt appears that this discussion has moved away from its focus. This is not supposed to be a political forum, neither do we come here to get lectures of what is wrong with the current setup. I (and I assume most of us) have had these discussions in medical colleges. In my humble opinion what should be addressed here is that how we can help each other to develop and improve our medical research infrastructure. Any realistic suggestions will be helpful while "blame game" and same old 'this and that' rehtoric will not lead anywhere.
Posted by: rqayyumPosts: 199 :: 19-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Dire need to improve
i just believe majority of ppl in our country are like u who donot want to have bad relations with any body and play a safe game , be good in evrybody eyes and thats all. All GP treatment just treat the symptoms never touch the disease.
ijaz
quote:
rqayyum wrote:
It appears that this discussion has moved away from its focus. This is not supposed to be a political forum, neither do we come here to get lectures of what is wrong with the current setup. I (and I assume most of us) have had these discussions in medical colleges. In my humble opinion what should be addressed here is that how we can help each other to develop and improve our medical research infrastructure. Any realistic suggestions will be helpful while "blame game" and same old 'this and that' rehtoric will not lead anywhere.
Posted by: ijazaliPosts: 151 :: 20-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Re: Re: Dire need to improve
This argument is quite old and has lost its importance (at least in my case).
I will again like to stress the importance of 'what we can do to improve this system?'. One can put conditions to one's participation that only if 'this and that' is done that he/she will participate. On the other hand, one can also use current system as an excuse for his/her inability to do something, at the same time discouraging others who may want to do something.
I am certain that all of us here want to learn from each other's experiences. I hope that this helping and learning envoirnment will continue to improve.
quote:
ijazali wrote:
i just believe majority of ppl in our country are like u who donot want to have bad relations with any body and play a safe game , be good in evrybody eyes and thats all. All GP treatment just treat the symptoms never touch the disease.
ijaz
Posted by: rqayyumPosts: 199 :: 21-04-2005 :: | Reply to this Message
Re: Dire need to improve
Just new to the forum I read with interest the whole discussion. These are the emotions and anger that almost every body goes thru while in medical school. But I think we all talk too much and have little to add[ including me]. Every one at its own place can contribute for the better to come. The question was about the standard of our published articles . If there is a good study, I would rather publish in a reputed journal internationally known than in Pakistani Journal. You can look at some of the studies from Pakistan published in good journals. It is these people who can make a difference by paying attention to the local journals they think are doing the good job and should be supported.
Can a journal be banned [ by PMDC, Govt etc], no. Can you force them to resign and change the management and by whom, no. Only way is to bring out your articles, mark the good journals and support them with your honest ethical research. The journals that you think should not be supported do not publish in them. these will die out itself and others will flourish, kind of survival of the fittest [do not tell me what is fit for our society]. This has happened in the west also, we are in our evolutionary phase which started late, but at least has started. I have been away from Pakistan medical field so am not aware which journal is good or bad, one may read and decide. Be the judge and help each other to improve not blame or counter blame. I would like to acknowledge the fact that somebody at least started this discussion.
Posted by: ntarifPosts: 3 :: 24-07-2005 :: | Reply to this Message